Curse

Midnight Harmony · Feb 26, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

It makes me sad that Mesmers have such a hard time getting into groups, because they really are one of the most useful classes in the game. I myself have one and trying to go to the FoW is a nightmare most of the time, and it's due to most whammo-led groups not realising that having interrupts and energy denial in a group helps out immensly when fighting annoying mobs like skeletons.
There needs to be something done to make people see how good a skilled Mesmer can be, and perhaps giving every interrupt the chance to inflict critical damage would help. Another thing people tend to overlook is that Mesmer attack skills ignore armour, and having -10 or more degen is quite deadly to a spellcaster if it's not removed, as are all the deliciously damaging spells that trigger if an enemy casts or refrains from casting a spell. I also think it would be a good idea to make Mesmer skills especially damaging to other spellcasters, so they would be even more deadly than they are now. I think they deserve that at the very least, seeing as how so many of the Inspiration based energy drain spells I use regularly, have been nerfed over the past year.

upier · Feb 26, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viruzzz

there is nothing wrong with mesmers in PvE. there is something wrong with players. they don't know what a mesmer can do, and they are too scared to experiment. kinda the same reason why they stand in the middle in the 9-ring.
its not a game flaw, its a flaw in the average players mind.
I will take a mesmer over anything else if i have a spot to fill in a party. and especially the henchman interrupters are great. with their superior reaction time (interrupting a .25 cast spell with a .25 cast spell anyone?)
don't give mesmers anything special just because the average player is stupid. no reason to overpower them so people will use them.

yep - there is somerthing wrong with players.
the biggest problem is that players cant seem to diferentiate between 'having fun' and 'being usefull'.
the mesmers are fun - but they are far away from being usefull on a scale of a necro. monk. ritu. warrior. ...
i am sorry - but if youll take a mesmer over everything you are agreeing to run a sub-par party in pve.

Ferret · Feb 26, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakana

I'm suggesting:
1) Add more healers and protectors among monster grops. Make monsters more skilled. That's when a mesmer would come handy.
2) Make the energy pool of monsters smaller. Now you simply cannot suck a monster dry of energy.
3) Reduce hex removals among monsters (the monsters may not have much healing, but they sure have hex removals!)
4) Remove the natural recovery of hexes and conditions from bosses.
5) Reduce the inhuman life regen from bosses and some monsters, instead give them better skills (life drain is completely useless in PvE)
6) Add new illusion line skills. While domination line is okay, the illusion line is mostly useless in PvE.
7) increase casting times of spells (at least in PvE). It's VERY hard to reactively interrupt spell casting or actions. Spell casting has become faster and faster all the time in GW, nerfing mesmer interruption continuously.
8) Nerf ranger interrupting. I know this won't be a popular suggestion, but most ppl think ranger can interrupt better than mesmer.

1) - Yes and no, it all depends on the overall difficulty change to the game because of it.
2) - Definately.
3) - Yes.
4) - Yes.
5) - Yes.
6) - I actually find that the illusion line is fine in PvE as it is.
7) - Yes and no. I play an ele as well and a lot of the best spells do have a long casting time, the problem is that a lot of PvE monsters seem to have auto-fast casting. Get rid of this alone and the mesmer would be far more effective.
8) - I totally disagree. I have both a ranger and a mesmer (both my first two characters and played in all three chapters). I find that they are equally effective at interrupts (in fact, the mesmer is probably slightly better with spells). It is not the ranger that needs nerfing, it is that players opinion of mesmer ability needs to be changed (and the point of this thread).

Ferret · Feb 26, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

yep - there is somerthing wrong with players.
the biggest problem is that players cant seem to diferentiate between 'having fun' and 'being usefull'.
the mesmers are fun - but they are far away from being usefull on a scale of a necro. monk. ritu. warrior. ...
i am sorry - but if youll take a mesmer over everything you are agreeing to run a sub-par party in pve.

Sorry, but mesmers are FAR from sub-par and not being useful. It all comes down to the skill and experience of the player. My mesmer has been the difference between success and failure in many missions, so to rule them out of being useful is a very blinkered attitude and part of the root problem.

Antheus · Feb 26, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

For Prophecies, mesmers are redundant before THK. MM or nuker are much better choice. Villa the Unpleasant? Harmless with mesmer in group, 15 minute fight without.

For Nightfall, a primary mesmer is generally redundant before RoT.

In Factions, a mesmer can come handy in most missions on mainland due to usually mixed mob composition. Also, try killing this one: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Mungri_Magicbox, it may show the usefulness of a mesmer.

The problem isn't with the class, but with the PvE content, which is for most part so easy, that brute force wins over finesse.

Obviously, since majority goes through the content with simple builds, they just don't know what to do with mesmer once they do become a valuable group member.

And that means playing mesmer as mesmer, not some abhoration of fast-cast nuker, or rezmer (If you need a rezmer in PvE, you're in trouble anyway).

Quote:

8) - I totally disagree. I have both a ranger and a mesmer (both my first two characters and played in all three chapters). I find that they are equally effective at interrupts (in fact, the mesmer is probably slightly better with spells). It is not the ranger that needs nerfing, it is that players opinion of mesmer ability needs to be changed (and the point of this thread).

Concussion shot or distracting shot are caster killers.

But mesmer has an advantage with fast casting spells through diversion, mistrust, shame, ineptitude, etc. All those don't need to be timed, and when used wisely will be much more reliable than ranger interrupts. That's a huge advantage mesmers have, but the difference is same as protection vs. healing. One is pro-active, other is reactive. First one is powerful, but more difficult to use.

pingu666 · Feb 26, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Well, since Necromancers stole best mesmer skill (cough, SS, cough), there is little hope ...

We need more AOE interupts, AOE punishment or disablement hexes, Stuff like Fevered Dreams (but not being elites) ...

Or make inspiration line actually inspire and provide party buffs (imagine Chaneling being targeted ally enchantement, Imagine Keystone signet ally targeted to allow ally recharge signets, ally targetted Mantra of Recall or Lyssas aura)

I simply no loger accept Me/E in my parties (hello? if i wanted nuker i would get one but i want mesmer that knows his stuff, not the one that spent 90% of his pve life imitating elementalists), at least peope were cured of Me/Mo fast cast healer stuff. Frankly, i am alergic of all Me/x not being mesmers, 50% time i take mesmer in party he does something stupid (like Me/N spamming deathly swarm...)

they go /E for gole
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0118594&page=3
read that ^ and you can see why they go /E

Pakana · Feb 26, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferret

Sorry, but mesmers are FAR from sub-par and not being useful.

I completely agree. Mesmers are very useful but they aren't popular. And they aren't popular, since mesmers aren't usually damage builds.

In my opinion it's funny teams take more elementalists when they want to do more damage, yet they do not realize that mesmers can disable the monster elementalists doing harm to you. And they take more monks to keep your team alive, but they don't get a mesmer can disable the monster monks keeping them alive. The player teams think "what can we do", but rarely "what can monsters do". It seems to be irrelevant what your PvE enemy can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

But mesmer has an advantage with fast casting spells through diversion, mistrust, shame, ineptitude, etc. All those don't need to be timed, and when used wisely will be much more reliable than ranger interrupts. That's a huge advantage mesmers have, but the difference is same as protection vs. healing. One is pro-active, other is reactive. First one is powerful, but more difficult to use.

True. But it would be still better against those good, skilled PvE monsters. And hexes tend to go off from monsters so rapidly...

Shady79 · Feb 26, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

no comments to my skills?

I would highly recommend more skills that are useful against different mobs, not only vs casters.

TGgold · Feb 26, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I think all the "power spells" should be changed so that they interrupt the action of the target. If that action was a spell, then they should have their effects.

Example:

Power Drain: Interrupt target foe's action. If this action was a spell, gain X energy.

Power Spike: Interrupt target foe's action. If this action was a spell, deal X damage.

Perhaps this would phase out the usefulness of say..leech signet, but I don't think it would be a huge problem. As people have stated, rangers are considered to be the "superior" interruptors, mainly because they aren't restriced to only being able to counter spells. Why not test the idea with Mesmers?

SPIRIT OF THE SEA · Feb 26, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I actually made a mesmer yesterday and it was so much fun to play a mesmer i couldnt stop untill i finally got to lvl 20 which i did. I dont know why everyone says its unwanted because its the most fun and i recomend everyone makes one.

The reason not everyone has one is because the fact that its not part of a balnced group. Sometimes i can replace a necromancer but not often.

The way i think you can make it a lot better is simply by making the following.

1)better celastial skill
2)More elite skills that can make mesmers part of a balnced group
3)make more green wepons. (i cant find a good staff or wand that anyones selling its gay)
4)AOE empathy and backfire

just like spitefull spirit

Basically necro and mesmers are brothers and necromancers beat up mesmers for the title

Mitchel · Feb 26, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

1 Give Mesmers (only mesmers) an experience title
2 remove it after a few months, when people realize how good they are.
3 make the tutorial in the new chapter, teach players WHAT every class does.

BenjZee · Feb 26, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

i never see mesmas about really. it's probably because when searching for a party, people look for mostly MM's and monks.
I think the mesmas look the most stylish in the game and was annoyed when i took mine out of pre searing jsut before i got mini pet. I never was that good at builds but in pre searing my Me/W pwned with his rin blade. wouldn't be seen with a sword nowadays.

So hes still in ascalon city...collecting the dust...i may use him again as i do like the range of armor they get.

Ferret · Feb 26, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakana

The player teams think "what can we do", but rarely "what can monsters do". It seems to be irrelevant what your PvE enemy can do.

I think this is a good point. It is also why playing a mesmer can be such a game learning curve, as you need to think a lot about what the monsters actually do.
In Dasha Vestitable (Nightfall Mission), mesmers rock against those Ruby Djinn and Roaring Ethers (then, so do interrupt rangers, but i think my mesmer generally worked more efficiently than my ranger).

Former Ruling · Feb 26, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Some Points

1) The problem isn't Mesmer's skills. Mesmers have awesome skills. Any buff to alot of them or adding good new ones would most likely spell complete Destruction in PvP. Even giving them any sort of decent damage has historically led to some dark times. In relation to PvE you have to think of monsters too- They can become quite annoying with the right skills because they do not have to worry about cost (or recharge most of the time), and often come in multiples in a group.

2) Adding a million monks throughout all mobs in the game isn't an effective way to try to put Mesmers into groups. Healer mobs are horribly ineffective healers anyway minus the rare 1-2 Bosses people are quoting up in this thread (Whom both, btw, can be taken out of the game rather quickly by a Ranger anyway) so mostly adding them to every mob would just waste a few more seconds of the nukers and warriors time.

3) Altering the skill sets of monsters to be a bigger threat has to be done (in all regards, not just for Mesmers sake) with much care. They have already made alot of mobs better when you look at Factions or Nightfall. PvE is always going to have places where monsters just come in big dumb groups you have to slaughter with some big boss fight somewhere down the line. I do agree though that Difficulty does not always have to mean More Monsters and Higher Level Monsters.

zwei2stein · Feb 26, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

they go /E for gole
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0118594&page=3
read that ^ and you can see why they go /E

Yeah, but ask PvE Me/E to your party and let him ping build ... i can guarantee you that he will be FC nuker of some kind. Nothing you really want

---

Pakana: It was said already, Damage, pure damage, is way more usefull in PvE s its is right now.

Is there really a point in disabling monster that is gonna die several seconds later?

If there is shutdown worthy priority target, party can always focus fire to kill it. If you need mesmer to disable most dangerous foe because noone is killing him, there is problem in party.

---

Irony of PvE:

most mosters really worth of mesmer attention are anti mesmer and cant be really disabled:

* they have moster skills that cant be blackouted / diversioned / stolen
* they have skill activation casting speed ( gg, interupts ) or they resist hexes
* they have plain resistance to interupts (damn you kunavang!)
* they use hexes to heal themselves.

Seccond Irony of PVE:

If you need mesmer, other popular class can do your job, and do it good enough, or its all about one or two key skills that anyone can take with minimal investment.

Example:
* Kanaxai looks like ideal mesmer target - spell you really need to interupt, enchant you really want to remove, empathy that would be great. - comunity solution? SS necro gets to use spinal shivers and inspired enchantement, vital needed fuction of one character reduced to two skills.

Commander Ryker · Feb 26, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote: